Delinquent Minds

Dear Intangir Minecrafters,

   I am here to talk about my recent actions on the server mc.intangir.org.
First I would like to speak about the offensives I believe I have caused on the server.

Tree-Farm problems: I cutdown the Tree-Farm in an haphazard way. I didn't replant the saplings after I took down the trees.

Trampling Crops: I have trampled crops by mistake. I was warned multi times. I understand now that this is an issue. This happened at the public farm, and at Savanahmile's house. I did come back and fix it a few times, but also Savanahmile had to fix it a few times as well.

Annoyance: I believe I have acted immature, mischievous and overly arrogant.

TNT: I placed TNT inside of Orange City, Without the intent to blow it up, but the threat is still there. It was meant as a joke, but I can understand how it isn't funny to everyone.

Property invasion: I have entered peoples properties by mistake after being told not to enter these zones. This is manly an issue with Savanah's lands.

Horse Problem: Riding on dangers horse, riding it away from where the owner left it. Without the permission of the owner.

Everything listed above with never happen again. ( A few may happen, but I will readily fix the situation.)
I am asking for your forgiveness, I know I haven't earned it. I know I have been giving chances before. I am asking for a final chance. I will respect all of your rules, all of your guide lines. I want to rejoin your community as a shop-keeper, and a valuable member of the community. I am asking for a final chance to prove I am not what I have been up till now.


I would like to apologize to Savanah.
 
    Savanah, I know I have pushed your buttons. I know I did some of it on purpose, I did a few things for your reaction. ( TnT, a few times walking near your land ) All I can do is ask for your forgiveness, and hope you can find it to give me another chance. I know you're a mother and can see lies when I tell them. I hope you can see this isn't a lie. I hope we can rebuild at least a friendly atmosphere together.


  Commander, I don't know what to say to you at this time. I know you're a good guy, you annoyed me a lot with this pearl, and taking my stuff and making me feel a little disrespected. I totally understand your frustration however. If you can't find it to unpearl me, I can't blame you. All I can do is ask for your good graces one more time.

Anything anyone else wants to discuss with me about things I've done, I am open to discussing everything, all I want is to be accepted again back into the community. I hope we can work this out together.
If you have suggestions on how we can build trust together, please let me know so we can work on it.


    Thank you for taking the time to read this post.


     I apologize to anyone in the community who I have offended, annoyed, trampled,ignored. I hope you can all forgive me in time.



With many good wishes,
       Shystan

Oh boy....

#FreeMyNiggaShystan

Seriously It does take a lot to write this letter, I give you cudos for that,
I want to believe it is sincere.

For what it's worth, I support giving him another chance
#FreeShystan

You do seem to spend time on this server and now tht you know we dont kid around i think we should give him one more chance to prove himself  :-D #FreeShystan

well commander what are you going to do? you have his pearl

he doesn't seem like a persistent and unreformable threat to me

There apparently is a cost to to your spree of nonsense.  Shanghai wasted two perls, and a HUGE amount of his time, as well as Commander,myself, Dangerlowski, and many others.

I know that more than one person claimed some of your belongings, not me.   So the question is if you came back are we going to hear about that constantly??? and the drama of that??? or just let you pick up from where you are now?  Your shopkeeper is in place but somehow he has nothing to sell.

Also if you have been mining near big mountain in Orange, you can not mine under it, there are homes and animals up there.  The bigger issue where are you going to live?  Do we let you back in Orange?  Stone gate, and you can come to orange via portal?  Or your own place?




So all these questions go to shystan.

the leaving the gates open is not being a nag, it allows the monsters in Orange and since one killed your friend zep from that we know you know.  Your letter said you will stop all that nonsense and play and trade.  Shystan realize on this server Once you are perled you usually STAY perled Commander is not being a jerk thats just usually how we do it.  Afrowe and Frodevil wanted to play and they were perled on old map and Afrowe perled on this map.  Even though people on here are sayign give you a second chance this is not a democracy and there are others that didn't post that say no leave hom perled!   

When I return, I would like to use my old house, it is outside of orange, but I can still access orange easily.


Return of items: I would like to recieve my items back. If commander won't return them too me, I can't do anything about that. What I think would be fair, if he gives me my items back I'll simply get a pearl and give it too him. If he doesn't want that, and he wants my items I can't stop that. (I'll still play and I wont mention it over and over.)

Shop: Joey has some of my items. I should be able to rebuild somewhat, if commander won't trade my items back to me in return for a new pearl. ( and anyone else who needs one , Shanghai already got a pearl from me.)

I don't know if my entire house is destroyed. I know my chests were all looted by commander, if my house is destroyed I'd be open to living in other areas. I prefer staying within 300meters of orange to view and edit my shop, and be closer to HD and Joey for trading, and everyone in general.


Thanks, if you have any other questions feel free to post them.

Shystan

I would like to note that if members of the community see keeping you pearled as an unjust action, they can take forceful measures to see to it that you are unpearled.

Shystan,

You were NOT UNJUSTLY PERLED  BOTH TIMES!

You can give your "friends" the coords to your perl and attempt to make a prision break, but that would get them perled too mostlikely, so it won't be me.

When you return,......IF YOU RETURN..........A perl is not much for the chaos and headache, I SHOULD HAVE went and loted with THEM, hhahahhahaha, but thats not my style. 
I really don't want you focusing on Commander, he is not the only one who looted, so please get that straight, Joey actually stated "Lets loot his stuff," had he not said that and ran towards your home maybe, we could have kept it in tact.  the home has minor damage. 

Daniel logged on said something about you lied to him about sharing the house???  I told him you were currently perled, and maybe thats what happened with chests.  I went to look at your home yesterday I do not see your horses.  I think those should be returned at the least but I don't know who did it.  Commander AND JOEY AND the MOB that looted your home left the horses. 

But there are alot near Brainless Zombies Old house That he has for sale by the way, with an amazing horse stable.  close to rail and may or maynot have a portal.  It is nice big mine near by and lots of mobs to kill.  Just updating you. 

Again we do NOT usually unperl people so the person you keep attacking, Commander,  is the desider of your fate.  It's his perl!  He chooses.  Intangir put Afrowes perl in his shop for someone to buy if they want to free him, which is unique. 
I would NOT expect any loot back from any of them, but others may help you get back on your feet.
YOU caused the problem, so you NEED to understand YOU DON'T SET THE TERMS of any release, only the releasor sets terms, IF THEY CHOOSE TO RELEASE YOU.

This is why I asked these questions, IF you get set free I don't want t heard he did this or that, because it WOULD BE A priviledge that you were set free NOT A RIGHT.

SavanahMile:   "When you return,......IF YOU RETURN..........A perl is not much for the chaos and headache, I SHOULD HAVE went and loted with THEM, hhahahhahaha, but thats not my style. 
I really don't want you focusing on Commander, he is not the only one who looted, so please get that straight, Joey actually stated "Lets loot his stuff,""

Joey simply tried to get my stuff back for me. It was commander who when asked said "Lets rip it down idgaf anymore"

I am not mad at commander however, I understand what I did was wrong. I think that maybe the system is wrong. Why should the pearler get the loot? I believe if somenoe gets pearled the loot should be shared amoung all players, or put in a chest for everyone to split up. I also never said i was setting the terms. I just said what i'd like to happen in the best situation. I know it probably wont happen. and I know i caused all the problems. Also saying my friends would break me out? I don't understand that. I've never asked anyone to break into his stuff.


The daniel stuff, Dan played with me for 35 minutes when i first joined the server. he gave me a iron axe and about 45 wood. He wasnt on for 4 days and I don't know how to even set chests so he can open them. I don't see how thats my fault. Also I couldn't fix the situation because as you said; when he logged in I was pearled.

                 Yeah, each time you were pearled, it was entirely justifiable. No getting around that.

        I also don't really see a "worth" in freeing you, you've already wasted many people's time, effort, and patience, why free you and "chance" it to see if you'll cause chaos again?

         Are you going to come place and act as if you're going to set off TNT at my house for laughs? I don't know the answer to that.

             You do seem like a perpetual threat, some people here don't know all of what you've done. You've stolen, (from danger), you've *jokingly* attempted to blow up savanah's property. Why should I unpearl you knowing that you could potentially harm my friends?   

             I think a good name for you is "Loose cannon".       

           Your stuff, however, is all mixed in with my stuff and joey's/progamer's stuff, so I don't want to hear crap about that IF you are freed in the future.

         BUT, I can help you get back on your feet should I choose to let you go, (i.e. iron/wood/coal/armour/tools etc.) and I'm sure joey and gamer would too.

           

          You make it seem like you're really repentant of what you did, I can't argue with that. I think we all wanted you to do better.         

"IF you get set free I don't want t heard he did this or that, because it WOULD BE A priviledge that you were set free NOT A RIGHT."

It isn't like he murdered an entire family and burned down a city. As it stands, the punishment does not fit the crime and he has every right to try to get his pearl back by force IF any hope for release is lost and I will defend that right. I can understand demanding some kind of pay back, but keeping him locked up for ever for crimes that were relatively easily fixable and not permanent is NOT justice, it's overblown emotionally-driven revenge. I hope you can come up with reasonable terms for his release to avoid pointless conflict.

When he is released I will happily help him with anything he needs, including paying back for damages.

Commander, let's not forget that the horse incodent with danger was all figured out. It was my fault for riding it but I didn't hold it from him. I said this: "I was riding for like 20 seconds" and Danger replied with "Thats not completely truthful, but not far from the truth" He then stated "it's not shystans fault but wasnt smart" So that issue has been dealt with. ( I don't remember his exact words, but thats close to it.) I am not free from blame from that problem of course. I realize what I did. But I think that isn't something that we can't fix. Because he got his horse back, and I've never broken anythign that wasn't easily repaired. ( besides tree-farm ) The TNT problem wasn't even the fact you were scared about me blowing it up, You were just fedup with me. I think that is still a valid reason, but don't pretend like you thought I'd actually blow it up. I stated: "I'm not blowing it up but it's my property" it was outside of savanah's land, I had no redstone or any means of blowing it up. You destroyed the TNT and then came and killed me as I was running away from it. Clearly not planning to destoy it, just prank you. ( Wasn't a good idea I understand that now, but destruction of property wasn't the goal.)

 :mrgreen:
first i wood liek to say that um i am sad that my frend stanly has been in jailed. staly was alweys there 4 me so liek i just want to let him have fun more pleas :) . shystan is a good guy and has always been there 4 me, like a wite horse that i grashusly donated to my frend danger. he looks liek zombie and perled me 1nce. and he um.... he look like zombie but i forgive him and i know i sumotimes annoy u bc u looked like zombey and um i thught u were zombie so i yelled DANGER ZOMBEY n s tuff. but i hope u forgeve stanly becauyse he is good frend and deserves to be freinded now. ecksampel: wen i found a wite horse and u thought that u guys did relly think that i like took it or something :) but i didnot take it bc i am good honest person but i am relly happy that stanly supported me with horse and like new i didnt steel it and stuff but reall i knew u guys were mad at me but also savanah is my bro on server and i dont want to go on server without stanly and stuff but i rlly care abt him n stuff so like i wone tbe able to see my bro on server but i want to it is not fair i did nto do anything like relly so yeahu now that the horse is with the man who lost his i am happy that he got a new :) horse and stuff  but systan is free he needs free n stuff yeah but i want him to not be in dessert any1more pleas free stanly i want him to free. horse i gave was wite and i miss him and her and you know i am sorry that "i have helped and have" but i like to also. it not fair for stanly to be punished by mean and yu know. i am sorry for greef he caus but i am also disapoynted with u for perling him he not deserve bad to perl and stuff liek u know i just want him to live with all of rest of u know. you guys like. yeah i dont like meen people and i dont wantot to have u be liek meen ppl for u to shystanly because he is good friend. also $FreeShystan

It doesn't matter but I just want to make it clear: I do not have any of Shystan's stuff. I didn't loot anything from him. All items I have from Shystan are gunpowder which were given as donation and trade for Iron. Well before this happened.

Also I do agree with Stan on one thing for certain: Perled or not I think it's his choice where his assets and property go. I don't think the perler should be free to loot everything. If Stan demands his items be burned in Lava so be it, provided people are willing to do it. Otherwise it should be left alone. Joey has items of Stan's, but by voluntary permission from Stan after his perling.

I'm not saying we should recount everything of Stan's and fix it, but in the future this should be policy.

Savanna, I simply asked if we can get his stuff. I have nothing of his besides what he gave to me. Just wanted to clear that up because I am now being accused of a thief

ProgamerHD me either and Joey oaky good to know.

I would have prefered to have left his stuff be temporarily, but that is done now.
I do not see how we can recap whatever was taken without starting another issue.  I could say i had 50 diamonds now give them back, I can't prove it.

I want to think on this personally, as I am the one who was pestard the most, again THIS IS NOT MY CALL.

OH VBELAC....

I was in favor of TRYING to give him another chance but I do not want to be bullied into releasing him because he was a HUGE PAIN IN THE ASS, lets just be clear he admitted it, and I thank him for that.  This is for those who were not tormented to shit by him constantly, then him ignore you when you wanted him to fix his shit or give your horse back.  I like that he was playing and trading, I'm all for that, but I want him to leave me alone or I WILL SUPPLY the Diamond reignforced 5 layer thick OBSIDIAN for his chest which will be burried in the deepest freaking Lava pool on the map, and unrecoverable as I sip my hot coco in ease.

Seriously SHYSTAN, ProgamerHD told us you didn't like minecraft you like the social aspect of it, well if that aspect was trashing Orange City and annoying me I am not on board.

I repect you wrote your apology and I am like if he wants to play that bad then maybe, but as the course of this letter chain goes on I have some concerns around the attitude of you and others,  IF you were freed.  VBELAC you brought him to Orange City, which you don't live in and left him after you had to get cows to replace ALL of Stone Gates cows he managed to blow up first 10min on game that night,  I also remember you talking about him messing with chests, and telling him no.  Next day Death states his chests are broken into, did he do it?? no idea not my town.  So I get stuck baby sitting him at my town, I tried to send him back to Stone gate and they were like NOoooooo.


IF, and I MEAN IF, not when, then I personally have ground rules.
Orange City Access is limited, and can be revoked at anytime, common grounds areas like the shops, and food, NO TREE FARM EVER, that takes forever to fix, I'm not doing it again for the thrill of someone else.
Leave animals in Orange alone, meaning you got no reason to got near my land walkways to my land and the top mountain is off limits as is my land, and Dangerlowski and Artensas home unless THEY says you can go there.  You are not allowed to claim any land in the original Orange City only your place in the expansion area where your house is, no multiple buildings just to waste space we don't have.
I do not want to see you setting off any snitches on my land, that includes the land near Jonin's horse.   
Basically stop the nonsense.  I see your name on ANY of my personal property snitchesand your hypathetical parol would be revoked instantly, and perminantely, no additional conversations.

Lets talk about property looted as far as I am concerned its GONE.  I would like to know what happened to your horses???  Because I know Joey and Commander left them.

The thread continues on here withyour property. I do not want to go through that drama.  Now IF you were allowed to come back we have to listen to the DRAMA about i had this or that.  YOU HAVE HAD YOUR second chance with Shanghai and he told you if you got perled again taht was IT.  So you knew you were on thin ice, YOU KNEW.  That man ( Shanghai) wasted like HOURS of his time talking to you, trying to help you so you could continue to play on here.  I was goign to perl you and call it a day.  PERIOD, your perl would have been placed in a vaut for you to stay for all time, but Shanghai said I got this, he wanted to help you.   SO I have to think on this even though it is not my call. 

I was unaware that Orange City was privately owned land with a central authority. Also, he had nothing to do with the cows being blown up, that was entirely my fault. Furthermore, I'm not responsible for any of his other actions whatsoever.

The property issue is irrelevant at this point, I'll give him anything he needs when he is released. As far as what I think is right in the issue of his property, I think when someone is pearled some amount of the items taken from the pearled person should be given to people who had to spend time and resources cleaning up after them and who were the victims in the first place, to pay for damages. Some portion can go to the person who pearled said person, but I think this is very much a situational issue and should be discussed and agreed upon by the pearler and victims both.

"but I think this is very much a situational issue and should be discussed and agreed upon by the pearler and victims both."


I'm cool with this, I think everyone jumping at the property like rabid dogs has just created another layer to the issue. Which should have some sort of guideline for prevention in the future.

Hi everyone,

I'm glad to see a dialogue going. I think the most productive way forward is to talk about what would have to happen to effect Stan's release, and if those options are feasible and satisfying to all the stake-holders.

Before going further down that road, it might be useful to add my own experience of the situation for everyone's consideration. This is going to be a long message, broken down into sections, so please skip to any section that interests you, or down to the bottom for the TL;DR summary.


MY REASONS FOR GETTING INVOLVED:

I'm interested in AF as a gaming community, but also for the social experiment component. Can a self-governing community work, and work well? Can it solve its social conflicts with more efficiency, justice and dignity than other top-down/centralized models? I have no prior relationship with Stan, but I hope that as this community develops through trial and error over time, our errors arise from too much patience and tolerance, instead of too little.


MY EXPERIENCE OF THIS SITUATION:

I've had a couple of long conversations with Stan over the past couple of days--each one lasting about two hours. During these conversations we talked about all of these incidents and other, more general topics related to how different people get along in online communities.


FIRST IMPRISONMENT:

As some of you know, I briefly imprisoned Stan myself on the evening of Friday, Jan. 31, not only because of the many in-game disruptions up until that point (and one event that bled over into the real world), but also because I didn't see that Stan was being sufficiently considerate of efforts to discuss and resolve these issues.

After our first lengthy discussion, I set him free, returned his items, and provided him with additional items and assistance, as a gesture of my good faith. I didn't set any terms for his release beyond 1) not speaking to Zeppelin's brother in chat, and 2) a general understanding that his behavior up until that point had not been committed out of malice. To be clear, yes, we later talked about how some of his actions were intentional, and showed poor judgment (as Stan mentions in the original post), but not meant to be mean-spirited. I believe that is true.

We did not discuss how others might respond to his actions going forward, nor did I give any indication that I spoke for anyone but myself (which I don't).


SECOND IMPRISONMENT:

I was disappointed to see him continue to needle Savannah afterward, and I don't dispute the legitimacy of the second imprisonment by Commander. Nor do I dispute the propriety of a longer period of imprisonment.

However, I was sad to see Stan's property looted in the immediate, highly-charged aftermath of the event. I don't necessarily dispute the idea that a material penalty was improper, but that was not the context in which the seizure occurred. It appears that it was based on the position that he was now gone forever, and so it only remained to carve up the wealth left behind. Even when there is complete certainty that someone is imprisoned without parole, and there's no question that the assets must be disposed of somehow, I think this process should not occur during the heat of the moment.

I feel the same way about the subsequent repeat killings, which might be a useful tool to chase someone off the server entirely under certain circumstances, but didn't seem to me like it came from a level-headed place as it actually went down. It was super late, people were fed up. I understand.


STAN'S APPEAL:

The next day, Stan messaged me for assistance and we had our second long conversation. I said that I thought the forum was the best place to make an appeal, and that's how this thread came about. We talked for a couple hours about a lot of things, including the need to try to look at situations from others' point of view, and building trust not through words, but through actions over time.

He fully engaged the conversation and wrote his apology/appeal in his own words. I reminded him to include the event with Danger's horse, and suggested that he invite people to suggest terms of release. That's the extent of my involvement with the appeal. After that, I advised him to take a step back from the situation and cool off for a day or more.

I would like to reiterate what Savannah said. It's easy to become cynical about the sincerity of strangers on the internet, but I also want to publicly commend Stan for posting this apology. Yes, he wants out. That can cloud one's ability to interpret intent. But even taking that into consideration, he could have approached this topic in any manner of unproductive ways, and chose this route instead.

TO COMMANDER:

As Stan's jailor, you obviously play a pivotal role in determining his future status. First, let me say again that I agree with you putting him in the cooler. Regardless of his intent to cause physical harm, the TNT event showed poor judgment and an unacceptably negligent level of consideration for others. My question is: Should the imprisonment be forever?

It seems to me that what you're fundamentally after is an environment free not only of serious griefing (property destruction, theft, non-consensual PvP, etc.), but also free of chronic drama, disruptions and nuisances--especially when it's intentional (and everyone agrees that at least some of it was intentional). I couldn't agree more with that vision of the community.

I hope you would also agree that it would be at least a little odd to impose the same punishment on a chronic low-level nuisance as would be imposed on a malicious griefer who, say, turned someone's base into a crater, jacked all their loot, and bed-camped them for hours.

In view of that, I hope you (and everyone) will explore other ideas on the spectrum of crime, punishment and restitution laid out below.


OTHER OPTIONS POSSIBLY AVAILABLE THROUGH THE PEARL SYSTEM:

The pearl system includes interesting commands that aren't displayed on the site. First, the distance a prisoner can travel from his jailor can be set by the jailor (/ppsetdist <playername> <distance>). This means a prisoner can be given complete mobility in the Overworld while still being subject to the jailor's pearl powers.

The prisoner's ability to speak, place blocks, and damage other players and mobs can also be set by the jailor. If these commands are available to us, I hope they move us one step closer to a a viable model for parole.

Does the jailor have to be online for the prisoner to move about the world? I don't know, but probably. If so, one or more parole officers (PO) could be appointed to hold the pearl so the parolee can play. If the POs violate the jailor's terms while holding the pearl, then they too would be penalized as well. I know Stan plays with Joe and Pro, and communicates with them outside MC, so they might be good candidates if they're interested. I'd be willing to consider the role myself. Yes, there will be some inconvenience to the prisoner, but that's unavoidable.

(NOTE TO INTANGIR: If these commands are not available to us, I would love to see them restored.  They would add powerful tools and fascinating nuance to the community's self-policing powers).

Other options exist, in addition to, or instead of the pearl-parole model described here.


RECIDIVISM INSURANCE:

How will victims of repeat offenses be compensated, and who will compensate them? Players who vouch for the prisoner should contribute to a fund that will go to the victims of any further harm caused by the prisoner they've insured, for the duration of the parole period (or longer). I will contribute to such a fund if there is interest in pursuing this option. If the jailor is not also a victim, I don't believe the jailor should receive compensation (except for the pearl spent, as noted below), for fear of creating a hostage/ransom incentive via the pearl system. It creates a systemic conflict of interest.


LIMITATIONS ON MOVEMENT, CHAT AND ACTION:

The prisoner agrees to limits on all of these things. In Stan's case, I would propose a temporary ban from OC, to insure minimal drama in that area--even if unintended--and that he establish a new home no closer than 1 kilometer from OC. He is otherwise free to move around the world, but not to enter OC for X number of days (30? 60? 90?).


COMPENSATION:

In this case, Stan's assets have already been seized, so I think in this case, a material  penalty has already been applied. I think that penalty is too steep, and I would leave it to the consciences of those who seized those assets to decide, but if calling it even is what it takes to come to an arrangement, I wouldn't press the issue. Also, the jailor should receive a pearl to replace the one spent. The pearl can come from the prisoner, or someone who vouches for the prisoner (see below). I'll give Commander a pearl if need be.


A FINITE SENTENCE WITH A KNOWN END:

Another simple option is a publicly known end to the imprisonment. A period of imprisonment followed by a period of probation seems like a more proportionate response to the offenses involved. At the low end, I would suggest time already served. At the high end, I wouldn't recommend anything more than one week from the initial imprisonment date.


CLEARLY ESTABLISHED CONSEQUENCES FOR RECIDIVISM:

It should be made crystal clear to all stake-holders (and probably to the general public), prior to the prisoner's release what the consequences will be for further offenses. In this case, for example: further trespassing or nuisances combined with a demonstrated unwillingness to resolve them will be followed by longer imprisonment (1-3 months). More severe actions, such as block-placement griefing, theft or property destruction, or any non-consensual combat, will result in final, permanent imprisonment.


EXPECTATIONS OF THE COMMUNITY:

Out of respect for any parolees, ourselves, and the mission of this community, no one will provoke, goad, taunt or otherwise interfere with a parolee during a probationary period (and hopefully not afterward either). Further conflicts will be thoroughly screenshotted and offered on request as evidence of wrong-doing. That said, the parolee understands that no actions from other players excuse violations of parole terms.

TL;DR

- My interest is in helping this community be as just and efficient as possible.
- I think it was appropriate to pearl Stan, but want to explore other options for duration.
- I believe Stan will make a sincere effort to be a peaceful member of the community.
- If I'm mistaken, I will help out any further victims.
- This case presents an opportunity to develop a parole system based on many good options.
- These are not just my thoughts on Stan's case, but on crime & punishment in general.

@Shanghai I'd be willing to participate in some sort of parole officer sort of endeavor. I am unfamiliar with how pearls work though.

And yes, I did read your entire post.

   yeah I read it all too, now my eyes are bleeding.

              Shanghai, I like your ideas you have here. For this to work, there's going to have to be some modifications to the pearl mod, (I will use shystan as a prop). One change that you don't have listed is the double-pearling of one prisoner. Example: I have shystan's pearl. I summon him to the overworld. Someone else pearls shystan as I have his pearl also. That person who has now "double" pearled shystan has control over him and my pearl is worthless now. He can be freed by that player without my consent atall. This definitely needs to change in order for your parole idea to work. I would hope intangir would be gracious enough to work on that for us. Along with the radius size commands to limit how big of an area the prisoner has available to him.

      Note: This has actually happened in the past

Shanghai,  Again I praise your time and efforts in this matter.

Auh...This is why I love you Vbelac - Seriously the issue was with Shystan not Orange or any minor ordinances/rules/ common courtesy in the city.

I do not have any desire in the parole thing, then someone has to baby sitting an annoying person, making them yet more burdon on someone else.  Plus the perl can be stolen, that is true.  We are adults or close to it, be civil or go to another server has really always been how this server has worked.  It is not much to ask I don't think.  This is why this server does not BAN people for speaking their mind or griefing.  Intangir is a very gracious host.
Why should Intangir have to put in his valuable time to work around someone not acting right.  PASS

IF he is freed this is chance #3.  He did not care much about Chance #2, so I am not sure how serious he will take it.  If I cry long enough to mom and dad and they give in what did I learn?

To get my way I just need to cry long enough and get my way.  I DO NOT want this to be his lesson.
If set free with STIPULATIONS, He would be a first on this server, usually if you have made someone mad enough to have to perl you then thats it, but I see he wants to play, the question in my mind is what game will he be playing?
I now trust him as far as I can throw Commanders Iron golem, he would have to earn trust with me.
Personally I smell some chicken poo might be on my featherfall IV boots.  :P

The Looting:  Though it is not my thing!  it usually would not be an issue because PERLED is PERLED.
I do think it is in terrible taste, the body isn't even cold yet so to speak, but I have seen families drive cross country when someone dies so they can be teh first one in thier home and take their stuff.  They never drove there when the person was alive, but they drop everything for the loot when they die, so I guess it is some kind of human nature????

Orange City - he has a shop there, for him to grow trade is a good idea.
Question can he come in stock his shop get his goods and leave without issue???


Just my thoughts...  Stan wants ta play...

I don't think I've been crying to mommy and daddy over this. Also I never knew pearled ment you were dead. I thought it was a "Jail" and I'm pretty sure the police don't come to your house after you've been put in prison and take all of your stuff.

Pearling only generally means dead because a good 90% of the time the griefers come online, grief, get pearled, and never come back. Most of them never intend to actually play and they rarely want to make amends. When someone actually wants out and is willing to make amends, they usually get out. The only thing is, that already happened once with you.

Hey everyone,

Here's another long post. No sections this time, but there's a TL;DR at the bottom.

ProGamer, thanks for taking the time to read and for volunteering your services in a PO capacity, if that option is pursued.

Stan, it seems like the conversation is moving a constructive direction. Several options are now on the table. The details could get quite complicated, and I suspect folks need time to process them and perhaps come back with their own terms and conditions.

Commander, I'm glad you think the ideas I put forth are interesting. Thanks for considering them.

You raise a good point about the "double-pearl" issue. This could be easily disabled through a configuration option already built in to the mod, but doing so would create another set of opportunities for exploitation. With double-pearl on, an accomplice could acquire jailor powers and liberate a paroled prisoner. With double-pearl off, a pair of griefers (or more) could team up and "pre-pearl" each other so the community at large can't easily imprison them.

I'd like to explore both options a bit and see what you (and everyone) think (after your eyes stop bleeding from my last post :wink:):

First, let's suppose double-pearling is disabled. Now griefer teams can "pre-pearl" each other. This would require a level of planning, time and effort that most people seem to shrug off as highly unlikely in all other contexts, because griefers are almost always defined by their need for instant gratification. If they can't hassle you at no cost to themselves, 999 out of 1000 won't bother.

On the other hand, let's say that double-pearl functionality remains enabled. Remember that the jailor can disable a parolee's chat. This means he would have to recruit a Minecraft-playing friend from outside the game to join the server, start from scratch, acquire a pearl, meet at some secret location, and double-pearl him. This seems like a huge headache with a huge risk of worse punishment attached for both players, compared to simply completing a probationary period.

Yes, the prisoner might have a second account to double-pearl himself, but griefers with multiple accounts are a headache no matter what we do.

Now let's suppose an accomplice successfully double-pearls a parolee. What has the parolee gained? At most, one last, short hurrah. Admittedly, it doesn't take too long for a griefer to do a lot of damage. Even so, if we're talking about paroling people anyway, they could just as easily take revenge as soon as they're legitimately freed, or later on after they've acquired more wealth. It's true that once you pearl someone, they might want revenge, and the only guarantee against that is to leave them in prison forever.

If the parolee flaunts their unearned freedom, or if the original jailor logs back in and discovers his original pearl gone or non-functional (I'm not sure what it would look like), then the parolee has violated terms of parole and is now subject to permanent imprisonment. This community is good at hunting down griefers, and even the ones who slip away (like that one alt account belonging to MiaWinG) know better than to log back in.

If such an event occurred, yes, it would definitely be more work. Whether or not the risk of having to re-imprison the rare escapee (and accomplice) is worthwhile depends on the weight one gives to using this server as a platform for exploring the principled application of anarchism vs. a quiet place where like-minded folks can play Minecraft in peace. I think it can be both, but certainly acknowledge that this issue shows how finding that balance can be difficult. I don't begrudge the folks who just want to nuke trouble-makers and be done with it. They have the whole rest of the real world in which to run amok, so why can't we just have one tiny little bullshit-free zone? I get it.

It's also a remote possibility that an embittered player might try to "frame" a parolee by re-pearling him against his will and then claiming the parolee did it on purpose. I don't see that as likely, but if the standard up until now was to imprison people forever anyway, with no chance to rejoin the community, then this situation is still more just, flaws included. It requires the hypothetical embittered player to spend the time and pearl on the cause, and to jeopardize good standing with the community by lying about the situation.

I also agree that it would be cool if the pearl system could be massaged to be more empowering. For example, if /pplocate were a global command, instead of being available only the prisoner. It does not essentially change the fact that when you pearl someone, anyone can find out where you're keeping it. The only step removed is requiring the prisoner to be the one to provide that information. If /ppl were global, then pre-pearling would present griefers with a major liability as well, as their primary defense is simply not being found. Global /ppl would take that away from them.

Savannah, you also make several good points. I don't blame you for not wanting to invest anything in any parole efforts that may result from this conversation. You've had to spend more than enough energy on this situation already.

Also, thanks for catching me up on the "common law" history of the server. I realize that I'm asking people to spend a lot of energy on something that could take them outside their comfort zone. I can see why people might just want to say "Hmm, neat ideas, but I'm not feeling it for these reasons." The current method has served you all well in the past, and if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

That's why I think its great that people are engaging this conversation in good faith. My personal preference is to see the community use this situation as a test case for a more nuanced system of crime & punishment, but there are other valid reasons why it may not a good time or case, and I respect that.

TL;DR

- Thanks to Pro for offering PO services if that option is pursued
- Options are now on the table. People need time to think about them.
- Commander rightly points out that there are complications whether double-pearling is on or off
- Some of these complications are analyzed and might not be so bad. Maybe?
- Are there feasible changes Int could make to pearling to help the community self-police?
- It's great that everyone is engaging in good faith; this will help legitimize the final outcome.

              You're a cool guy, shang. I'm glad you chose this server to play on ;). Lots of good ideas and suggestions. I'm all for most of them, although they might be tough to do.

              The coding hassle and the major thought that needs to be put in to figure out how to minimize the exploitations that the prison pearls could bring about.

         (If these modifications happen I'll most likely do the probation method with shystan and see if it works out, then full release if I see he's legitimately learned his lesson).

             but there might not be a way to eliminate the double-pearl thing so it might or might not happen, for now patience is key.

If he is unperled then he is unperled under terms, the Terms would be the Parole, not the guardianship of the perl not interested in that at all.

I don't think that is helpful for stan or us, to have him leashed around on a perl seems to governmentalized, so Pass.  I can not speak for Intangir but seems bad idea adding or changing the server to suit one guy, that makes no sense.  Sorry long day so just saying it how it is.  I do find the perl-parole idea like leading a dog on leash, might as well just summor him for an hour a day to go mine gun powder for his shop then back to desert prision????  See not liking that thought at all, this is just how I invision it.

More Server History;
We have a resourceful and effective way of dealing with multile alts it works, that's how Commander got Shystans other account so quickly.  Team Vbelac and Commander, Simon and Intangir are some of the best griefer hunters on the map.  They had lots of practice on old map and V2 especially.

Commander, I'm happy I found this community. It's a fascinating social environment combined with a brilliant game. And yep, patience is key. The more moving parts an issue has, the slower it goes. I'm replying so quickly not because I'm in a hurry for an outcome, but because it's actually been a very interesting discussion.  :-)

Savanah, thanks for getting into more details on how you'd envision a parole system. There are compelling reasons to use an entirely honor-based approach. That said, any changes to the pearl system could be used going forward in any number of other situations, and would not have to be a one-off situation. Your  basic question still remains: Is it worth it? I could actually see myself using honor or a leash, depending on the situation.

Okay, I think this will have to be my last post for the day. Catch you all later.

Edit #1: I'm also glad to know there's a protocol for alt-catching. Thanks for mentioning it.

good god what a thread guys..

im not reading all of that

prison pearl won't be changed, consider it a unalterable aspect of the natural order of the game beyond changing, like gravity

you can only use it or avoid it but not alter it

i really think you should just release him, or charge him a reasonable fee (or whatever you've already taken) and let him loose

if he misbehaves you can capture him again anyway

"im not reading all of that"

Intangir is a lazy bastard, we're all screwed.

no i posted a new thread on the principles of the matter

it is alot shorter than this monster thread

"no i posted a new thread on the principles of the matter

it is alot shorter than this monster thread"

I know, I read it  :wink:

        I am willing to free you under these conditions. Only if you follow these conditions WHOLELY.

1. No whining about your lost stuff.
2. No entering Orange City.
3. No more greifing.
4. No more pranks.
5. No more causing trouble in general.
6. No more stealing.

              Agreeing to this means that your next violation of these stipulations means pearling again.

without fair arbitration or any other options any agreement to such severe terms is obviously under duress

SIMON THIS WHOLE LONG ASS NOTE IS HIS ARITRATION.

Orange city access/building, etc and its water ways are temporarly revoked.  
if no nonsense it can be allowed in future.

Give it time, prove you understand, and will actually do it this time

then i will advise him he doesn't have to give in to such one sided unreasonable terms

Commanders proposal


1. No whining about your lost stuff.
2. No entering Orange City.
3. No more greifing.
4. No more pranks.
5. No more causing trouble in general.
6. No more stealing.

I agree to all of these terms, except number 2. I would like to access Orange City for shops, and minor other things.

Savanahmile can work that out with me I hope. :)

If pranks, greifing, if I cause problems on purpose, I accept the pearl.

        Good to hear.

zounds and horras

btw you damn well ought to stay off of savanah's property or she will surely pearl the shit out of you

and i won't give much of a shit anymore because you have no business on her property anyway and you couldn't be more warned on what to expect

"5. No more causing trouble in general."

Careful agreeing to this, Shystan. You may think you are being released, but the wording is ambiguous enough that you could (will) remain wholly in their control.



The just don't have to bargain.

#FreeShystan

ya a few of those were pretty vague but hes released now

glad to see yall mostly worked it out

sorry if i was harsh on you commander but social pressure is a valid way of trying to affect change without it coming to force

he is moving to stone gate.  that should help